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Miners are centralizing into huge farms

Comments (26)

Earlier in the weekend, I posted a review of the July 3-4 meeting that we held to discuss PROHASHING's path forward over the next few months. The purpose of the meeting was primarily to answer the following question: why, given that almost everything else is exactly the same, are there fewer customers now than there were a year and a half ago?

After a lot of discussion, we realized that we had enough evidence to conclude the answer is that miners are centralizing into huge farms, owned by fewer people. This development should be alarming to community members and coin developers who are constantly pursuing decentralization of hashrate.

The logic for this conclusion was simple: if all of the initial conditions of an experiment are the same, then the outcome will be repeatable. If the outcome is different, then it follows that one of the initial conditions must also be different. We researched an exhaustive list of initial conditions and found that they are all the same except for one. There is either a cause that have never appeared in any Google search results about mining, or mining has become increasingly centralized, making pools less necessary.

In this article, I'll present a list of all the conditions we identified and why we believe that none of them have changed. Maybe you'll be able to post a reply and point out a condition that we're missing. Here's what we think has not changed:


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The system is not as capable

In December 2017, shortly before peak users and hashrate were hit, we closed the site to new registrations. We parallelized the mining servers so that the system's capacity increased from 12,000 simultaneous miners to about 240,000 miners. Then, on the day that NiceHash lost its money, we released the update that allowed us to accept all the customers who wanted to join us.

The number of workers increased to about 20,000 in December 2017 and January 2018, and then fell back to 12,000 now - exactly the same amount as there had been, despite the system having twenty times the current capacity.


The system has more bugs

This condition is perhaps the most weird. Two years ago, there were days where the system would go offline for hours at a time, or not record shares, so that Chris would have to perform share corrections on a daily basis. Share recording would fall behind by hours, and at one point there were hundreds of support tickets backlogged.

One change I'm 100% confident has not occurred is that the system has more bugs than it did two years ago. On Sunday night, the number of support tickets submitted was exactly zero, the first time that had ever occurred. The state of the system now, compared to two years ago, is not even comparable in terms of stability.


There are fewer features

If the system had removed features that customers used, then it would be understandable that those customers might decide to leave. However, there aren't any features that were removed, and we added a number of features like grouping. As demonstrated in many recent polls, there aren't any new features that are in great demand. litecoinpool.org, which has not changed in years and which offers very basic functionality, maintained or grew its hashrate at the same time ours remained stable.


The market has shrunk

Last week, hashrate for the bitcoin network finally rebounded to its all-time high that had been set during the last cycle, and litecoin hashrate is in a similar position. Despite that, hashrate in both algorithms at PROHASHING is about half what it was at the time of peak hashrate the last time around. The market did not shrink, but the hashrate is elsewhere.


Profitability is too low

To eliminate the possibility that low profits were deterring customers from mining with us, we started scrypt and SHA-256 miners at several pools to compare profits earned by mining at the pools. We focused on litecoinpool because their hashrate was so high (at 40 TH/s), and determined that our miners earned 1% more mining here than they did mining at litecoinpool. Even if we were only able to equal their profitability, it would still be logical that miners would prefer the pool where where they can be paid in any coin.


The site has poor marketing

One of the conclusions we drew from the July 3-4 meeting was that PROHASHING has poor marketing. We decided to budget $50,000 to attack this problem head-on, by producing a lot of content and positioning these forums as a widely-used and viable alternative to the censored bitcointalk.org forums. Someone is going to come onboard to produce "how to" YouTube videos for every type of miner. But this lack of marketing can't be a changed factor because we never performed much marketing in the first place. In fact, the charts page is largely the same as it appeared during the higher-visitation period, except recent work on performance meant that it took about twice as long to load back then.


Mining rigs have changed and become incompatible

An interesting idea that was brought up was that new mining rigs are incompatible with the system. We did receive some support tickets from customers about rigs that didn't perform as well, but those reported issues were addressed and there have been no additional reports since then. Additionally, testing performed by us with newer miners, like the Antminer E3, failed to reveal any incompatibilities. Furthermore, since the cycle is just getting started, many mining manufacturers do not have to funds, or have not yet had the time, to design and release new hardware.

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Given that we eliminated all of the factors we could identify as having remained unchanged since the last cycle, we needed to search for things that were both reasonably probable and which we had not already considered. The only answer that remained was that mining is centralizing into large mining farms. If the price of electricity is rising or if margins are getting squeezed, it may be that locating miners in huge warehouses is now the only way to survive. These farms, of course, would be solo mining because they have enough hashrate to eliminate the possibility of never finding any blocks due to variance.

If correct, then the implications of this theory are disturbing. The theory implies that 60% of the hashrate owned by independent miners during the last cycle has now gone offline, replaced by huge mining farms. In the recent Bitcoin Cash fork, we saw how two large pools colluded to execute a 51% attack against the network, which caused mega-exchange Coinbase to lock its wallet while it performed an investigation into why transactions has rolled back. In that case, it was obvious who had executed the attack. Now, the evidence demonstrates that hashrate has moved to private mining farms that anonymously submit blocks to the networks, and which for many coins may be more powerful than all of the known pools.

Fortunately, we have more than enough income to prosper even at current levels, and will be able to continue our push to improve our services. However, others should be as concerned as we are about the worrisome trend of miners moving to independent, anonymous farms, where they are stripped of any real accountability while gathering more hashrate every day.

Steve Sokolowski Author

Steve Sokolowski is a longtime miner, cryptocurrency believer, interest platform depositor, and PROHASHING owner. He can be contacted at help@prohashing.com.

Comments (26)

Archived discussion. New comments and replies are closed.

Forum Commenter
I am mining with a skeleton farm right now with 13 of my 23 Antminer L3+ units and 8 of my 12 Antminer S9 units sitting idle due to heat. The AC system I have for the farm cannot handle everything this time of year. Forum User: sunnywilson09
celicaguy18
I am fairly new to this mining stuff as I have only gotten into it about a month ago. When doing research I initially went to Nicehash as a pool since it had the software and pool all in the same site, but the more I started reading about it I thought it was a little suspicious. I mean what website congratulates themselves on making a 1% repayment to their customers?? -I then went to Slushpool as some people online suggested. I was happy because they have an app that I could monitor my asic from and see the payouts, but I soon learned out that I had to make close to $100 before having a payout. (@10 cents a day, I wasn't going through that wait!) -I then went to BTC pool as I could get paid out in Bitcoin Cash everyday with no fee attached. They also have a nice shiny app that I could monitor everything with. I choose to move on due to a Youtuber called "VoskCoin". He said he was using you guys and loved it, due to coin switching and he thought he made more money. - I have been on with you guys for the past week or so. It does stink that there is no app in iOS to monitor the miner, so I have to go onto Safari and constantly log in and refresh every time I want to check things out. I have a set of 4 USB NEWPAC miners that I use. I know it is very small in comparison to the big boys around here, but it is all I can afford at this time and it gets my feet wet into this game. ;) I will buy more as time goes on, and I can buy bigger and better miners. In both Slushpool and BTC pool I both made 10 cents per day using the same equipment, but with you guys I can't seem to get over 8 cents. I am constantly making tweaks to the overclocking settings, and the password arguments to see if I can get it back up to where the other pools were at. I appreciate that you guys are in America like me, so you have to innovate the software instead of power through due to the lack of cheap electricity. :D
Steve Sokolowski
I'll give you five dollars if you perform an experiment for me over the next day. Here's what I'd like you to do: Create a new account at Slush's pool, and a second new account here. Connect two of the NEWPAC miners to Slush's new account, and two of the miners to the new account you created here. Start all the miners at exactly the same time, and disconnect them all at the same time 24 hours later. After 12 hours, change the miners so that they point to the opposite pool. Each of the miners should mine for an equal amount of time at each pool. At the end of the 24 hours, submit a support ticket with the usernames and passwords of the accounts at both pools, as well as the username of your long-term account here so you can be paid. If you're willing to do this, that would be a great help. We can use the data to examine what could be different between the pools and optimize our mining.
celicaguy18
No problem, I'll try to start it when I get off work tonight
celicaguy18
Hey, I did everything you asked but you never paid me. Can you let me know what else you need? Thanks
Steve Sokolowski
I apologize for that - Chris has 88 support tickets and has not been able to get ahead of them because new tickets keep coming in. Your ticket is now in the top 20, and he expects to get to it within 2 days. The problem is that these tickets that are coming in now are extremely complex problems that require significant investigation. One example is that Basic Attention Token contract rejected some payments, and another is that the Verge version 5 client orphans all our blocks, but the version 4 client disconnects from the network weekly but requires the full blockchain to be downloaded again in order to get new peers. There was another one where Bittrex stopped trading a coin with US customers, but the coin is still returning API calls on their exchange as if it is available to be traded. We're still trying to figure out a way to get ahead of these tickets and may end up pulling someone from development later this week to get the queue down to zero if it is still high on Thursday. The upside is that by the time Chris pays you, you'll probably end up getting more money, because of how the coins are going to continue crashing over the next month.
celicaguy18
I understand. It just has been a few days and just wasn’t sure if you forgot about it. I can only imagine how stressful computer programming is. Good luck!
celicaguy18
Hello, I am probably what you would call a micro miner. I usually make around 10 cents per day and I have just started with you guys within the past week. I have a couple opinions from an outsiders perspective. 1. I have been making around 10 cents per day from other mining pools, from you guys I can only get up to about 7-8 cents per day. I am not sure if it is related to the high fees, or the constant switching from the mined coins and the time it take for my asic to catch up during the constant switching of the difficulty and type. 2. I do like that I can get paid in different types of crypto and even adjust the amount I can receive in each. (not that it really matters much) 3. The biggest thing that attracted me is that you guys pay out in bitcoin (EVERY DAY) no matter how much I earn and there is no cost associated with it. Many of the other boys have a pay threshold that would take weeks or months for me to reach! 4. Please look at this video on youtube (https://youtu.be/ZDHjaTgkUAA) It is a real test of someone who used the same equipment on your pool and another pool. Unfortunately the other pool made more. In the end that is what the end user looks at. In the follow up to the video it gives a couple suggestions as to why. Hope this helps!
Steve Sokolowski
Unfortunately, that video compares Prohashing with Nicehash. Nicehash works differently than Prohashing in that miners don't earn coins, but instead rent their miners to paying customers, and Nicehash takes a fee from the renters. Their marketplace can sometimes pay more than other pools because Nicehash miners earn money - in part - by allowing their hashrate to be used in criminal activities like 51% and block withholding attacks. 51% attacks are often used to steal money from exchanges, and block withholding attacks steal money from pools. We contacted Nicehash about whether they investigated these attacks, and they didn't reply. There is a very simple way to prevent these attacks and they have not implemented it. Their terms of service do not prohibit their service from being used for these purposes either. That's not all Nicehash is used for, but there are spikes in profitability there that rise far above market value when people rent large amounts of hashrate for these purposes. This hypothesis is given stronger evidence by looking at Miningrigrentals, a competing cloud mining service that takes action against suspected fraud. Their rental rates are lower than Nicehash's, allowing some people to rent hashrate from Miningrigrentals and direct it to Nicehash. Additionally, Nicehash is currently insolvent. They had $60m stolen from them, and they continued to operate anyway, an action that is illegal when serving US customers (and those in most other jurisdictions). They repaid customers in less valuable bitcoins, not the value of their accounts at the time the money was stolen, their repayments have only paid back about 40% of the monetary value of the losses, and even by their accounting they only claim to have repaid 70% - with no timeline for completion. Finally, there are Nicehash's terms of service. You can read them for yourself at their site. The fine print states that they don't actually guarantee that you get what you paid for - the amount of hashrate can be less - and that they won't issue a refund if a seller scams a buyer. We actually had this happen to us, where they refused to pay us $2,500 when we complained to them about a suspected block withholding attack they could not refute. In conclusion, we'll never be able to compete with Nicehash. They are running a business that is willing to take ethical shortcuts. You'll have to make a moral decision on your own about whether you feel comfortable dealing with them. In regards to your first question, could you tell me which pool you compared the figures at? And what type of ASIC are you using?
PRIUSHAPPY
Hi, I'm just stopping by because I wanted to comment. It's undoubtedly the 5% fee, it is unheard of in the mining world, directly impacting the profitability of mining. 1-2% is typical.
Steve Sokolowski
Thanks for stopping by! Out of curiosity, have you mined with other pools and compared their profitability to ours? Or, did you just see the fee and think that you would earn less here? You might not be aware that even though the fee is higher, tests have revealed higher profitability than the pools we tested. Your answer will help us determine how to proceed with the fees during Awesome August. If you've tested different pools, then there is a bug with our system that is only triggered by a miner we didn't test. If you did not, then you made an erroneous assumption and we need to figure out how to make sure others don't either.
cc4506
MinerLuver makes some good points. Add that its summer here so I only have a few going because of the heat issue and many of us have upgraded. So before when I had 6 L3's going now I just have two Z9's that are more efficient and make 3 times as much. (Yes, different Algo's but I no longer have much faith in Litecoin and have moved on). Also I did think this was the future, I am not so sure now so adding miners isn't something I am looking into. I bet I am not alone.
Forum Commenter
Keep in mind 1) The USA is trailing not leading blockchain technology. Look at the lack of regulation with the current SEC administration. Listen the the fed chief. Are miners the same as investors? 2) Tariffs are killing USA mining. Added 30% to our costs that every one knows the Chinese are not paying we are. The cost of every miner you see compare to Bitmain add 30% + shipping on a $2500 miner thats added $750 to my expenses. Its killing any one associated to the USA, blockchain & mining. 3) Dotard Donnie's latest tweet on Bitcoin... enough said Miners always go where the hash is. Why, because the pools getting the most blocks pay more. Simple. I'm living proof of it & can prove it beyond any reason of a doubt. I love your pool but if i make .03 more a day, in 30+ days I have 1 additional coin Although your fees are higher, I understand your auto switch algorithms are suppose to be more profitable. Lately not as much. Sometimes I wonder if too many junk coins are being mined instead of solid stable projects with sustainable value. Just thinking out loud :P Also, demanding USA personal info because of your interpretation of the IRS does not help "at all". I "understand" your point (lawyers & accountants screaming we dont know what to do but this is the best way to cya yourselves)... I just dont agree with it. The sec clearly stated Bitcoin was not an asset but Ripple could be. BTC is mined over time costing electricity, technology & effort over time. Ripple... poof we made a open cluster database & created these things out of thin air AND we say they have value? Until the tariffs are gone, American miners are screwed. You wont see an "increase" but you can get larger part of the already existing USA market but the IRS requirement will scare away any new USA miners. The more profitable auto switching algo's wont be enough unless they are 10% - 15%+ higher returns provable. Contact MGTCI aka stock symbol MGTI. One of the largest USA mining companies. One farm in Ohio right next to you. Contact them & offer your pools & algo with a discount for a certain amount of hashing power? What ever the deal is, have you guys considered that to any USA mining companies? ;) Keep up great work GLTA Forum User: MinerLuver
Forum Commenter
I think a problem is that smaller altcoins have taken a major hit compared to anchor coins for an algorthim (BTC/BCH for SHA256, LTC for Scrypt, Dash for X11, Zcash for Equihash, etc.). The altcoins are worth so little that it's often just as profitable to mine the cornerstone coin directly as it is to profit switch between altcoins. How to address this? I would consider offering lower fees for the anchor coins. These coins tend to have more stable prices and better liquidity, which means the pool can probably profit with less than a 5% fee. I think more people would come if, for instance, they could mine LTC with a 2% fee and still be able to switch to altcoins, which would have the usual 5% fee. Forum User: jde
Steve Sokolowski
I don't agree with having larger miners pay fewer fees. First, it adds complexity, which results in more support tickets and having to track deals. Second, if the purpose is to get people to "buy more" as such a structure does in retail, people don't usually have miners split across pools to bring more here. Third, there's no reason to upcharge the small miners because the largest miners make 90% of the profit, so what's 1 extra percent of the other 10%? Upcharging the smallest miners doesn't make enough money to justify it. Is there a reason to have separate fee structures that I'm missing? In regards to the issue with IRS paperwork, the research we've performed indicates indicates that more people join the pool because compliance with regulations increases trust, than do people who leave because they are trying to evade taxes. This was a surprising finding to us. It does not come across in social media, because people are more likely to complain about things they don't like than they are likely to write a positive review about something. Another point is that we started the tax compliance before the reduction in hashrate, not at the same time. So I guess the takeaway on taxes is that tax compliance seems to build trust. Remember that a huge warehouse full of miners, which are the customers that we want to attract, can't hide from the government. These people make huge sums of money every day and want to deal with people they know they can go after if they are cheated. Shady people who have two miners in their basements can try to hide their earnings from the government, but a few miners isn't going to make them (or us) a killing. I don't think the tax issue is a significant factor, and we can't do anything about it anyway even if it is, so it's probably not worth spending any time on. We're not willing to evade taxes for any amount of money; I don't understand why anyone would choose that lifestyle given that after you can buy the basics, money is pretty useless for the things that matter in life like health. As to what the fees should be, it's important to recognize that we can't assume that cutting fees in half and doubling hashrate will not yield equal income. When there are twice as many miners, it costs more money to parallelize the software and handle support tickets. If we cut fees in half, we need to roughly quadruple hashrate. That's because the 1% we are paying in exchange and network fees is fixed, and therefore our profit goes from 3.5% to 1.5%. Then, we also have additional charges for more bandwidth and computers and development labor. Do people think that hashrate could be quadrupled if fees were halved, or is that unreasonable? For algorithms, many of the algorithms being suggested have coins that are not traded at any exchanges that accept US customers. One of our goals is to try to promote the Bitshares distributed exchange by pushing significant liquidity onto it, once we get it implemented in November or December. Another issue with algorithms is that it takes a lot of work to add a new algorithm and many of them simply don't have much money at stake. There are algorithms where all of the miners for all of the coins earn $1000/day, so if we could capture 10% of the market, we would earn $5 in profit and would require a year just to pay back the cost of implementation. Finally, I'm curious if anyone might be willing to guess why we have not found a correlation between profitability and hashrate in the past. You might recall how, earlier this year, we made our pricing much more aggressive, to the point where scrypt profitability was increased by 3%. Yet, there was no statistically significant effect on hashrate. One of the reasons we haven't lowered fees is because we have tried these sort of experiments repeatedly and there has never been an effect on the number of customers as a result.
dnprod
i was thinking that people who bring large amounts of hashrate in a day/period are rewarded with lower fees for that period. but that would annoy the 'small guy' having to pay larger fees. so perhaps do it back-assed, those who bring a large average hashrate over a period get a "fee credit" (refund, reward) ?? sink the hook even deeper, the reduced fee applies to the NEXT period of time so they have to keep hashing to get it...
RCMco
Maybe establish a graduating fee scale where the more you pay the more services you receive.
jkndt
Perhaps something else to consider is the variety of algorithms that are available. I haven't added any more ASICs to Prohashing because my 9 most recent acquisitions aren't supported. I'm also near the point of power consumption saturation and will be selling off my least profitable per kW when I get more machines. It all depends on ROI as to the algorithm that I happen to buy for. My next planned purchase will go to prohashing, but if something else comes along with a better deal before, it may not be supported. Regarding your fees, it is a difficult thing to decide upon. Obviously you need to earn money to pay yourselves and provide the time/equipment/service. As your service user, I want to maximise my earnings. I think 5% is OK, that's why you are still the primary pool on the miners I have that you support.
XXXJAYXXX
I also think KYC might have something to do with it... You are the only pool I have ever come across that requires this for payouts... Most are anonymous, or at most require only email validation. Crypto miners by nature are not favorable to government control... just food for thought..
XXXJAYXXX
I agree to some extent.. however.... I think the coming rise in price will change the tides considerably. I'm sure there are plenty of people like me out there who have a stack of old mining gear just waiting on the sidelines for the prices to once again out-pace the hash rate. I'm pretty sure BTC hash rate is only increasing due to the new antminers hitting the market.. lots of commercial farms are switching over to these new machines that are still priced out of reach of the average hobby miner. I think the part you have wrong here is that bigger farms are not actually buying up older machines... they are buying brand new machines that are 4x faster than what the average hobby miner can afford/justify.. Smart hobby miners are either sitting on their older machines.. or even buying them up at significant discount just waiting for the price to come up high enough so they can turn them back on. Basically it's a waiting game at this point.. once the prices/profitability come back you should see an increase in miners on the pool again... I remember at the start of 2017.. the S7 became unprofitable for most people at one point as the S9 came online... then a few weeks later it was back in the green due to the price spike and it remained profitable for most of 2017... I think we will see the same thing happen again on a larger scale this time. I actually see a squeeze coming on the mining equipment market... if the price goes up fast enough.. all of the older machines will start getting bought up.. and there are not currently enough manufacturers to supply the coming demand... A lot of ASIC manufactures went bust in the last market cycle.. and I have not seen many new startup's since then.. The "once bitten, twice shy" scenario I think will come into play here.. people will be far less likely to go "all in" on a new hardware manufacturing venture which will just add fuel to the hardware shortage fire... I have a stack of A4 Dominators just waiting to hit ebay when that time comes ;-) As for the plan of action for prohashing.. My best suggestion would be to tighten up the coding/features of the website.. get rid of features that are not commonly used or are redundant... clean up the coin list so you don't have coins offered that you are not able to pay out (Im guessing this will alleviate the amount of support tickets you receive as well). Get rid of redundant links.. basically simplify and streamline the whole operation so when the flood of people does arrive.. you won't be slammed with glitches and support tickets. The #1 thing that causes me to find a new pool is glitches and downtime... I'm sure most hobby miners (which is your main market I'm guessing) feel the same way! I do think your idea of advertising is a good one.. but the "entry" for this campaign should be carefully timed as to draw the most attention... Wait for profitability to become favorable.. and for the market to start the frenzy for hardware... then hit em with an ad blitz as the new crowd of miners comes online... Just my 2 cents :-)
dra2120
I don't think it is quite as nefarious as it sounds, but you are correct. When the market dropped, many if not most miners stopped mining because it was costing more to run the machine than they were making. When I was at the Boston Blockchain Conference, many of the people who ran big mining farms (30K+ machines) said that this was great for them, because they have positioned their operations where electricity is so cheap that it doesn't matter what machine they are using they will still make a profit. So they said that they are snatching up tons of "older" machines for next to nothing, cleaning them up, and then putting them to work in their mega farms. While this makes perfect business sense on their end, on the side of "hobby" miner. (what I would classify as 50 machines or less.) this moves the majority of hashing power and cheap equipment to the mega miner, forcing the hobby miner to purchase the newest and most expensive equipment. This I think is why there has been a down turn in smaller operations. Everyone sold their machines, and now the cost to get back in is too high, especially with the volatility of the market and no-one knowing if they will spend 5,6, 10K on equipment only to be in an upside-down market again. On another note, I think the fee scares a lot of people away. I think you guys should get your fair share, and I think 5% is reasonable, but everyone I've told about the pool has asked what the fee is as their first question, and when I tell them, they say no thanks...It doesn't matter to them that they can be paid in any coin, or that they will likely make more money with coin switching. they hear the fee and are immediately out...Maybe there is some way to integrate the fee in a different way, that still gets you paid, but isn't as scary to established miners who are used to a much lower pool fee.
Steve Sokolowski
The fees are not the cause of the decline. The fees were the same one year ago and now, so that can't be the cause. It does make sense, as you said, that some people are definitely deterred by fees, and they were neither customers before nor are they now because of the fees. One of the biggest problems with fees is that I never get replies to the answer of what the fees should be, so they stay the same. In the past month, there have been four support tickets asking for special deals or lower fees, and when I asked each one what fee they wanted, there was no response. A lack of responses has been a problem for months. The exact fee level makes a huge difference because then we can figure out what services we should discontinue. Until we can get some answers as to what fees people want, we unfortunately can't make any changes. Are you willing to suggest what you think the fee should be?
XXXJAYXXX
I think your fees should reflect the competitive nature of the market... if you can trim the fat on the website to minimize the amount of time your team needs to spend maintaining the website.. it should... in theory.. reduce the operating costs.. I think the question you need to ask yourself is "what can we afford to drop our fees to?"... Pretty much everyone on the site will tell you that a 0% fee would be most preferable.. but obviously this does not make sense from a business standpoint... I'm guessing the reason you have not received a response to your question.. is there are a lot of metrics at play that we do not have access to... What are your current margins? If you decrease the amount of time/work required to maintain the website... can you justify a lower fee? Considering there are other websites that are not quite as "pretty" as Prohashing.. but also offer auto-conversion and profit switching for only 0.75-1.15% fee(Zpool comes to mind) I can see why the 5% scares a lot of people away... It doesn't matter if your pool brings a miner 1% more than another pool... 5% fee comes off as "Greedy" when compared to your competitors.. and its a turn off regardless of how much nicer and more user friendly your interface is, or if the end result happens to be 1% higher earning for the miner. It's a psychological barrier.. most people make decisions on their emotions.. and if they feel 5% is a rip-off.. they won't care about the finer details. The question automatically becomes "If other pools can do it for 1-2%... why can't you?" Just imagine the appeal it would bring if you could advertise the same 0.75-1.15% fee as your competitor.. but offer 3-5% higher earnings AND a more user friendly interface.... would that increase your traffic? I think it would.... Business 101 - Taking a short term 75% pay cut in order to increase your customer base 300-500% is not a bad move... you will make your money back in the long run if your company can support the move...
mike0204
Steve, I think that your conclusion is 100% correct. It is concerning, but I think that the cause is economics and an "After the Gold Rush" effect. The economics are pretty simple. In Q1, I sold most of my miners for $2,000 and bought several mining contracts with a big centralized miner. Last month, I made ~$40 per day in profit. Had I kept my old miners, I would have made perhaps $12 per day. Even if I had been lucky and bought a new S17 Pro @56Thz/s, I would have only made about $15/day profit. Granted, my contracts only last for 1 year, but as you have stated many times, technology moves fast. Plus, my contracts will end before the halving. Who knows what will happen to mining profits after that. The "After the Gold Rush" effect is pretty simple too. Prior to 2018, mining was a niche hobby that attracted little corporate interest. There were booms and busts. The Bitcoin rise to $20K was the event that attracted interest from both corporations and governments. Since then, most of the profits have arbitraged away, effectively ending the gold rush. Profitability is now determined only by your cost of electricity and the value of bitcoin when you entered the market. If you are in an area of even reasonable electricity costs, you can't compete with your own miner. You can also pretty much forget about solo mining any coin of value. I do think that your site provides value, particularly from the aspect of being able to receive payment in lots of different coins. If I were you, I would consider getting on the platform of one of the big miners. Better to ride the wave than get crushed under it. If it's of any value, I'd be happy to send you the spreadsheet that I use to track my small operation. Just let me know. Best regards, Mike
RCMco
Did you look at any other pools besides litecoinpool ? I am wondering if pools in general lost miners do to a lack of profitability and some went to litecoinpool giving the appearance that they have remained stable when in fact they too had a drop. Or, maybe the 5% fee? Litecoinpool.org does not have a fee since merged mining began. I am mining with a skeleton farm right now with 13 of my 23 Antminer L3+ units and 8 of my 12 Antminer S9 units sitting idle due to heat. The AC system I have for the farm cannot handle everything this time of year.
Steve Sokolowski
I reviewed a number of pools and found that, in general, the ones I had checked previously had fewer customers. Of course, I can't make any statements about pools that didn't exist when I checked last year.
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